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	<title>Comments on: CS4067: Expectations and immersion</title>
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	<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/</link>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Niall Mackey</title>
		<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-1494</link>
		<dc:creator>Niall Mackey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xn--ick4b7a7i.net/wordpress/?p=213#comment-1494</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Not relevant - but I like the snow.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not relevant &#8211; but I like the snow.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ele</title>
		<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-1481</link>
		<dc:creator>Ele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xn--ick4b7a7i.net/wordpress/?p=213#comment-1481</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;:) Good luck for tomorrow!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://blog.daniel.ie/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Good luck for tomorrow!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tilmitt</title>
		<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-1472</link>
		<dc:creator>Tilmitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xn--ick4b7a7i.net/wordpress/?p=213#comment-1472</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sure np.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure np.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ダニエル氏</title>
		<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-1471</link>
		<dc:creator>ダニエル氏</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xn--ick4b7a7i.net/wordpress/?p=213#comment-1471</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think you hit the nail on the head there. Without the choice, it breaks the immersion. If they want to take away the choice and force you to do it, to make sure you follow in Arthas&#039;s footsteps, then they didn&#039;t do right, because you do feel that dissonance.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks a lot for the input. Well thought out and expressed articulately... mind if I quote you in my essay?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you hit the nail on the head there. Without the choice, it breaks the immersion. If they want to take away the choice and force you to do it, to make sure you follow in Arthas&#8217;s footsteps, then they didn&#8217;t do right, because you do feel that dissonance.</p>

<p>Thanks a lot for the input. Well thought out and expressed articulately&#8230; mind if I quote you in my essay?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tilmitt</title>
		<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-1470</link>
		<dc:creator>Tilmitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xn--ick4b7a7i.net/wordpress/?p=213#comment-1470</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I was trolling the wow-europe forums a few days ago about the torture quest.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I play on a roleplaying realm and my character (a Dwarf Priest!) has his own personality and principles, alot in common with me. For instance he is racist against the horde races (just like I am racist against white and black people), self-righteous, idealistic and full of fighting spirit against stuff he hates. Again all similar to me.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The quest itself involves the Kirin Tor, a group of mages at war with the Blue Dragonflight (the blue dragonflight claims the world is being destroyed by reckless use of magic while the Kirin Tor refuse to stop using magic.) By default all player characters get quests from the Kirin Tor and are considered on their side.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The guy who gives the quest tells you that torture is illegal under the Kirin Tor rules, so he needs an outsider to torture the Blue Dragonflight sympathiser mage for him. There is no choice to refuse and take a different quest line. I just didn&#039;t do the quest and abandoned the quest line, as it completely didn&#039;t fit with my character&#039;s personality.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Blizzard has recieved some criticism that the quest is an endorsion of torture, and given the recent issues in America where its army has been torturing susspected enemies, it is almost impossible not to draw parallels between the two. In America, for the most part the American army is considered the good guys (our troops and all that bullshit - our rapists more like) just like the Kirin Tor is in WoW.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However other people have commented that the inclusion of the torture quest is perhaps a criticism of the use of torture in the name of a &quot;good&quot; cause. Alot of effort has been put into emphasising that the players are following in the footsteps of Arthas (who became the Lich King). Arthas was an extremely riteous defender against the undead, but he became increasingly zealous in his methods of battling the undead. He eagerly slaughtered a whole city of people to stop them being used as undead, lied and betrayed his own troops and mercenaries who fought for him and nearly killed his own friend Muradin when he took up Frostmourne. Eventually Arthas became the very monster he was struggling against. In their own zealousness, the Kirin Tor and indeed the players who participate in the torture quest are becoming the very evil they are so furiously fighting against. This is a powerful narrative and immersive tool, and indeed perhaps even a political statement in regards to the real life issues current prevalent.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The failure of blizzard was not introducing the issue, but the failure to provide players with a choice. I would love to be able to turn against the guy who asked me to do the torturing, or even against the entire Kirin Tor. Equally if I was playing a morally bankrupt charactor I would like the choice to perform the torture. It would make some awesome role playing and immersive content.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is a role playing game. Complex moral issues add to the richness of the immersion - but players need to be given a choice or the immersion breaks.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was trolling the wow-europe forums a few days ago about the torture quest.</p>

<p>I play on a roleplaying realm and my character (a Dwarf Priest!) has his own personality and principles, alot in common with me. For instance he is racist against the horde races (just like I am racist against white and black people), self-righteous, idealistic and full of fighting spirit against stuff he hates. Again all similar to me.</p>

<p>The quest itself involves the Kirin Tor, a group of mages at war with the Blue Dragonflight (the blue dragonflight claims the world is being destroyed by reckless use of magic while the Kirin Tor refuse to stop using magic.) By default all player characters get quests from the Kirin Tor and are considered on their side.</p>

<p>The guy who gives the quest tells you that torture is illegal under the Kirin Tor rules, so he needs an outsider to torture the Blue Dragonflight sympathiser mage for him. There is no choice to refuse and take a different quest line. I just didn&#8217;t do the quest and abandoned the quest line, as it completely didn&#8217;t fit with my character&#8217;s personality.</p>

<p>Blizzard has recieved some criticism that the quest is an endorsion of torture, and given the recent issues in America where its army has been torturing susspected enemies, it is almost impossible not to draw parallels between the two. In America, for the most part the American army is considered the good guys (our troops and all that bullshit &#8211; our rapists more like) just like the Kirin Tor is in WoW.</p>

<p>However other people have commented that the inclusion of the torture quest is perhaps a criticism of the use of torture in the name of a &#8220;good&#8221; cause. Alot of effort has been put into emphasising that the players are following in the footsteps of Arthas (who became the Lich King). Arthas was an extremely riteous defender against the undead, but he became increasingly zealous in his methods of battling the undead. He eagerly slaughtered a whole city of people to stop them being used as undead, lied and betrayed his own troops and mercenaries who fought for him and nearly killed his own friend Muradin when he took up Frostmourne. Eventually Arthas became the very monster he was struggling against. In their own zealousness, the Kirin Tor and indeed the players who participate in the torture quest are becoming the very evil they are so furiously fighting against. This is a powerful narrative and immersive tool, and indeed perhaps even a political statement in regards to the real life issues current prevalent.</p>

<p>The failure of blizzard was not introducing the issue, but the failure to provide players with a choice. I would love to be able to turn against the guy who asked me to do the torturing, or even against the entire Kirin Tor. Equally if I was playing a morally bankrupt charactor I would like the choice to perform the torture. It would make some awesome role playing and immersive content.</p>

<p>This is a role playing game. Complex moral issues add to the richness of the immersion &#8211; but players need to be given a choice or the immersion breaks.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: James P</title>
		<link>http://blog.daniel.ie/2008/12/12/cs4067-expectations-and-immersion/comment-page-1/#comment-1466</link>
		<dc:creator>James P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xn--ick4b7a7i.net/wordpress/?p=213#comment-1466</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Firstly, cool snow :)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Player expectations are an interesting area (from what I have read in you post). The Black and White AI point is a good one. I also remember Malachy mentioned a similar issue in the expected behaviours (and Abilities) of a robot that has humanoid form. People expect “human” behaviours for the robot, but if you have it in the form of a puppy they think that it’s great if it just sits up.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It’s like you said with the “the suspension of disbelief” that the players will allow to you. By making the creatures of a form that is “similar” but not exactly the same as something real you can get more its always quite cool the first time you meet one of them in a game. You find yourself trying to weigh up what they might be capable of. It can prove a shock when you get it wrong, especially in the Horror types FPS (like Dead space). I still remember in BioShock when I first got nailed by one of the splicers that was pretending to be dead on the ground, that made me jump, unexpected (the first time) but great idea to include.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For some reason “affordance” from HCI has popped into my head when writing this...&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly, cool snow <img src='http://blog.daniel.ie/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>

<p>Player expectations are an interesting area (from what I have read in you post). The Black and White AI point is a good one. I also remember Malachy mentioned a similar issue in the expected behaviours (and Abilities) of a robot that has humanoid form. People expect “human” behaviours for the robot, but if you have it in the form of a puppy they think that it’s great if it just sits up.</p>

<p>It’s like you said with the “the suspension of disbelief” that the players will allow to you. By making the creatures of a form that is “similar” but not exactly the same as something real you can get more its always quite cool the first time you meet one of them in a game. You find yourself trying to weigh up what they might be capable of. It can prove a shock when you get it wrong, especially in the Horror types FPS (like Dead space). I still remember in BioShock when I first got nailed by one of the splicers that was pretending to be dead on the ground, that made me jump, unexpected (the first time) but great idea to include.</p>

<p>For some reason “affordance” from HCI has popped into my head when writing this&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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